Going Into Debt for Wants

[Dia Minha]

I might have already beat this subject to death, but this morning I was studying the Visiting Teaching Message on "Mananging Resources Wisely and Staying Out of Debt". I was impressed by the quote from Elder Robert D. Hales that says, "It takes great faith to utter those simple words, 'We can't afford it.' It takes faith to trust that life will be better as we sacrifice our wants in order to meet our own and other's needs."

It pretty much summed up what I have been feeling these last couple of months and made me wonder; If Heavenly Father has allowed us to be stewards over all that he has blessed us with in this life, when we go into debt, aren't we in a since saying we somehow deserve more than He has given us? Made me think about debt in a whole new light.

[Erudite]

Dia...I think what you've said could be taken in several ways, and I'm sorry if I'm being a bit obtuse here, but...

The parable of the talents: He gives 5, but rewards the servant who brings back 10. Did the Lord expect the 5 to remain 5? No, He really does expect us to exceed what He has given us. Yes, I know you're talking about the super duper big house, boat, and car, but we DO deserve more than He has currently given us. Our eternal inheritance is WAY more than He has currently given us and He expects that we'll reach for it.

You, wonderful Dia, are setting aside some wants now in expectation of being able to do more with what you're given later on in life. You'll be able to do that with your goals and that is wonderful. But no less wonderful are those of us who those of us who prioritize things carefully to have a luxury now and then. I totally appreciate you didn't mean to criticize anyone, but we all get to make different choices with our lives and that we work toward having more doesn't mean we are overriding God's will in our lives.

I guess I say all that because it almost seems like you're either looking to be told you're right in only ever having your needs met with few of your wants and "way to go, Dia!" OR you're looking to be told you're wrong and a few more wants are justifiable and "it's ok, Dia." (And maybe you're not looking to be told anything, but you do bring up the subject a lot. ) But what it really is, is that you prioritize your life one way and the rest of us get to prioritize our lives in our way. I chose to have a really nice car, but I don't have the IPOD, the Wii, or the cellphone. I choose to have good looking lamps, but will use my dish towels/cloths to holes. I choose to shop at DI for kids clothes but buy really nice shoes for kids so they'll last long enough. It's all a matter of choices and we each get to make our own. My definition of "needs" isn't the same as yours; neither is my definition of "wants".

You never in a million years thought anyone would take it like this, I know. You are right in that we are given stewardships, but if we don't magnify those stewardships, are we really doing what God wants?

[bookworm]

Wow, E, that is an interesting response to that post. As far as DEBT goes, I do agree that we should avoid debt as much as possible. But it is very hard to live life without meeting any of our wants. We are not pioneers, we live in a modern time and don't have to work from sunup to sundown in the fields or kitchens just to survive, and life is expensive! From science fair projects to Eagle Courts of Honor, I'm experiencing modern life's costs. And please don't tell me that I could do the Court on a shoestring-- I am, but even a shoestring costs money .

However, I agree that going into debt on frivolities is a very bad idea, and obviously not what the Prophets have been telling us to do-- they tell us constantly to get out of debt. I find it interesting to note, though, that they understand that the people are in debt. Most of us have more debt than just our houses. Would I put an ipod on a credit card? Heck no. But I might be tempted to use credit to pay for a nicer car than we really "need". On that note, though, we don't really NEED a car at all. We could just take the bus, walk, or ride a bike everywhere. I agree with Erudite-- people do define "needs" differently.

[Dia Minha]

The thing is, we are not going without the things we want now. We did for a year to pay off our debt and now we have the money and are spending it on the things we desire. We bought a huge leather couch and a big screen tv so that our family could enjoy our new family room. We certainly didn't "need" either. We bought a really nice washer and dryer, because we wanted it. They were way more than what I needed, but we had the money and it looked nice in our new wash room and they make my life more enjoyable. I know they are wants. I could have said I needed all those things for any number of reasons, but they would still be wants.

I have never said that people shouldn't buy what they want. I believe that everyone should spend time and/or money for things and vacations or whatever just for the simple fact that they make our lives more enjoyable. It is just when these things are purchased in the extreme or maybe not in the extreme, but is more than one can afford and goes into debt, in my opinion, that it becomes a problem. Sometimes one has more time than money and adjustments need to be made accordingly.

Anybody can say that any purchase is a "need". Very early on children learn that a "need" is more important than a "want". However, it does not change the definition of a "need". Not for you, not for me. Again I'm not saying that no one should ever buy anything just for the simple fact that they want it. That is silly. I'm saying that until one is able to understand the difference between wants and needs they will most likely never find financial security. Of course there are always the exceptions. People do get rich. Generally the rule is the more money one makes the more money they spend. So even rich people can get into a whole lot of debt quickly if they can't limit their desires to what they can afford. I always thought the way to wealth was to make more money and it wasn't until I realized that it had nothing to do with how much money we made, but everything to do with how much we spent, that I was able to discover wealth.

I also have never said that there is absolutely no reason ever to go into debt. There are always situations in life where we have to make decisions and the best choice for us might be to go into debt. We did this when we finished our basement. We borrowed against the equity in our house, because we realized that by doing so we could then put more money into savings for an emergency situation and bring us more financial security. This added five more years onto paying off our house, but we now have 3 months of emergency money in our savings account and are working toward six. Buying a house, education, vehicles, sometimes medical bills or starting a business might require us to go into debt. I just believe that sometimes it is easy to justify going into more debt to buy a nicer car or bigger house and in return we give up blessings or security that would otherwise come by making a different choice. Yes, everyone has the right to choose. I have never said that everyone needs to do it like we did. I have just said that the way we did it worked.

Yes, I do bring up the subject a lot. I think it is one of those things I have learned a lot about, but I'm still learning more everyday. I get excited about what I'm learning and want to share it with everyone.

Yes, everyone does prioritzes differently. That is way I have always tried very hard to say, "I choose not to buy that" instead of the popular "I can't afford to buy that". It gives me strength. It reminds me I do have a choice and my choice is to remain as financialy secure as I can, because that is where my true happiness comes from.

[natickgirl]

The subject of debt and wants vs. needs is so interesting to me! Everyone has her own opinion, and her own priorities. Examples from my own family:

One sister chose to buy a home in a good South Jordan neighborhood at the top of their budget and much bigger than they "need" because they felt strongly that having a home with enough space to invite friends & family over was important. Her home has, indeed, become the family gathering spot. However, she scrimps on everything else (and I do mean EVERYTHING). Although there is plenty of space, staying at her home is somewhat uncomfortable because of the ancient futon to sleep on, cheap towels washed in cheap detergent, the drying soap, etc. I'm really not a priss, but why should you put up with itchy dry hands just to save a few cents on soap? And, is spending $5 on dryer sheets to have nice, soft not scratchy towels really going to break the bank? They have plenty of money for these things, but they choose to spend it on cruises, a camper trailer, occasional pedicure or massage, etc.. (I personally would never pay for a pedicure, but I do enjoy everyday creature comforts. She has her priorities & I have mine.)

Another sister bought an old, charming house in a questionable Sugarhouse neighborhood that offers amazing after-school activities at little or no cost. The home is small, but recently remodeled and tastefully furnished. I would not choose to raise my family in that neighborhood, but it works for them & is central to their commutes. They choose to spend their money on newer cars, nicer clothes, quality furnishings & extras that make visiting their home enjoyable such as comfy beds, soothing & good-smelling soap, etc.. I would guess they have roughly the same amount of income & debt as my other sister, but just for different things.

My brother bought a small but new-ish home in Midvale shortly after he got married. They needed to be close to his wife's family while their boys were young because she worked while he finished his degree. Now she is a SAHM w/3 boys & a large dog, and they are looking to upgrade. They could stay in their current home in Midvale & have it paid of fairly quickly, but they feel the neighborhood is not a good environment for their growing boys. Their priorities have changed from a newlywed couple; now they are looking at schools, neighbors, and yard size. Will it mean more debt? Yes.

One dilemma we're facing in buying a house is that we feel very strongly:
1. That our children need to be in a neighborhood with lots of other children their same ages, especially our son. 2. We should do all we can to stay within their current school boundaries because they've been through enough changes already, and we know they are currently getting a quality education. 3. We spent so much of our lives fixing up our "old" house, that we do not want that stress in our lives anymore nwo that the children are older. 4. That having a short commute for DH is important to our family & our lifestyle. In order to address all these concerns, we need to look in newer neighborhoods, because Bountiful is aging. We are willing to buy a bigger, nicer, newer home than we "need" (and, therefore take on more debt) because we both strongly feel it would be worth the sacrifice to provide our children with a better growing-up experience.

Like my 1st sister, we feel our home should have adequate space for family gatherings and teen hangouts. If we need to sell the home and downsize in 10 years when our children are in college, so be it. In the meantime, we are willing to drive older cars (or have DH take the bus), shop at discount stores, and cut back on extra-curricular activities when needed in order to raise our children in a nice, safe, kid-filled neighborhood. Are we wrong in doing so? I don't think so. Will we be judged for it? Yes. Unfortunatley, judging others by our standards/priorities is a natural tendency.

Dia, I'm glad things are working out for you & your DH to stay on track with your financial goals! Keep it up! You're doing a wonderful thing! You obviously gain so much peace from the state of your finances, and you will be blessed for your efforts. Ultimately, each couple needs to prioritize and find what brings them that peace with regards to home, family, future, and "necessary" debt. Again, it's all about priorities...and inspiration. =-)

---------- Post added at 05:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:04 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Dia Minha

I was impressed by the quote from Elder Robert D. Hales that says, "It takes great faith to utter those simple words, 'We can't afford it.' It takes faith to trust that life will be better as we sacrifice our wants in order to meet our own and other's needs."

Forgot to mention, I loved this quote as well! My interpretation is that we need to be able to provide for ourselves & our families, and we need to prioritize our spending in order to do that. The way we do that is different for each family. Spouses must keep each other in balance, focused on priorities, in order to achieve their individual family goals. I will sacrifice my wants for a new washer & dryer, nicer car, dream vacation, etc. in order to have a home big enough to share with others. We can't afford it all, so we must sacrifice & prioritize.

[Dia Minha]

Natick, I totally get that. We have chosen to stay in a smaller home so that we can afford to buy nicer things to put in it and go on bigger, nicer vacations. So we prioritze differently than someone who desires a bigger home so they can have people over, which is so not a priority for us. We kind of like having our personal space and not being the place to go for parties and entertaining. Although it would be nice for things such as baptisms and blessings and such, it is not our priority and make do on such occasions.

We have actually been talking a lot about getting a vacation home near the ocean. This of course would put us into more debt, but we would rather have a vacation home near the ocean then a bigger home in Utah. I guess the ultimate would be to have an everyday home near the ocean, but in order to afford that it would have to be quite small and we kind of like having a little more room.

I believe it just all goes back to realizing that all these things are wants. It doesn't mean we have to give them all up. We just have to realize that sometimes we really can't afford everything we want and we do have to decide what is more important to us and our families. And realizing that when our financial situation changes that our needs do need to be met first and we might have to go without more of what we want to meet those financial obligations.

---------- Post added at 02:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:25 PM ----------

Just read your addition and you said exactly what I was trying to say. Sometimes I really do feel like I'm not expressing myself very well.

[5ft Diva]

I believe it just all goes back to realizing that all these things are wants. It doesn't mean we have to give them all up. We just have to realize that sometimes we really can't afford everything we want and we do have to decide what is more important to us and our families. And realizing that when our financial situation changes that our needs do need to be met first and we might have to go without more of what we want to meet those financial obligations.

When you say 'WE' I take it to mean you and your little family - those you have stewardship for. You're not trying to speak for the rest of us, right? Or are you? Just clarifying.

I also wanted to point out that just as much as wants/needs are different to everybody so is the definition of debt. This I have learned w/in the bounds of my own marriage. Oh, agency, sometimes it can leave one feeling perplexed.

[Dia Minha]

Sure, I'm speaking for me and my little family, those I have stewardship over. I was also making a statement of what I believe. And I do believe (it is my testimony) that everyone would benefit from following Elder Hales council when he says, "It takes great faith to utter those simple words, 'We can't afford it.' It takes faith to trust that life will be better as we sacrifice our wants in order to meet our own and other's needs."

What do you mean there are different definitions of "debt"? Debt is debt. If you owe money or services you are in debt. That doesn't mean that all debt is bad, but it is still debt.

When you say, "Oh, agency, sometimes it can leave one feeling perplexed", are you saying I'm perplexed about agency?

One last question. What do you think Elder Hales is saying in this quote? What does this quote mean to you and your family?

---------- Post added at 08:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 AM ----------

I found this talk by Elder Hales very enlightening and thought it went well with our discussion. I would love to hear all your thoughts on it.

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[Dia Minha]

It has been brought to my attention, by a very good friend, that I haven't been doing a very good job of sharing my ideas, because of the way I say them. I have been making statements that suggest that I am telling everyone they need to do this and do it my way. That is has not my intention and I apologize. This is just a topic I am very passionate about and I feel this absolute need to share everything I learn with those I care about. Sometimes my passions come across as shouting, "I am a crazy woman, hear me roar and do what I do". Now that I am more aware and understand a little bit better why this is, I will try and do better. Thank you for being a "safe place" for me to learn this.

[Mamallama]

Great quote by Elder Hales Dia. Thanks for sharing that and thanks also to all of you for sharing you points of view on this subject. Very excellent points of view have been brought up here giving me a lot of food for thought---and I think all of your ideas are right.

I too think we need to be careful not to judge other families' choices of how money is spent or what they go into debt for as being totally "wrong" with an attitude of our own spending/debt habits of being totally "right". Since we cannot walk in another person's shoes, we do not have any right to receive inspiration as to the way another person/family should handle their spending or for what purposes they go into debt for. What might be right for one family, might not be right for another.

For example, using Dia's example(hope you don't mind) ---while it might be okay for Dia's family to go into debt to finish their basement and buy a big screen TV and put some of their second mortgage in the bank to store as cash for an emergency, this plan or decision might not be right for someone else's family. This does not make that other family better than Dia's family, nor does it make Dia's better than them. It's a plan that works for Dia's family and that is great.

Bottom line is that we all are in debt to the Lord for all that we have. If we follow the counsel of our leaders to each personally evaluate and strive to live within our means the best way we can figure out how to, within our own circumstances, avoiding debt as best as we can, and then share/use what we do have to bless and enrich our families' lives and those around us, we in turn I believe will find peace.

[Mamallama]

I've been thinking a lot about Elder Hale's quote----and what Dia was saying about being stewards over what we have been blessed with.

I think the purpose of sacrificing our wants has a far greater value than just helping us to avoid debt.
Elder Hale's quote reminds me a bit of the scripture in Matthew that says"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth....but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven.... "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." I believe that when we follow Elder Hale's counsel in sacrificing of some of our wants, especially when we do so in order to help others, this helps us humble our hearts and lead our hearts towards laying up the kind of treasures in heaven that Matthew is talking about.

[Erudite]

Originally Posted by Dia Minha

It has been brought to my attention, by a very good friend, that I haven't been doing a very good job of sharing my ideas, because of the way I say them. I have been making statements that suggest that I am telling everyone they need to do this and do it my way. That is has not my intention and I apologize. This is just a topic I am very passionate about and I feel this absolute need to share everything I learn with those I care about. Sometimes my passions come across as shouting, "I am a crazy woman, hear me roar and do what I do". Now that I am more aware and understand a little bit better why this is, I will try and do better. Thank you for being a "safe place" for me to learn this.

Dia, my first response above was a response as if you had been speaking of ideas that we all should be following if we are following God. I apologize for not realizing it was an excited "I'm learning!!" that you were sharing and for taking it in a way that you did not mean. I hope you can accept my apology.

I love that you learn and that you share!!

[Mamallama]

I have to apologize too. I often will start reading posts on a thread and get sidetracked by a couple of comments and then don't read the rest of the posts on the thread before I comment I'm so sorry Dia that I didn't see your last post. I think you do a good job expressing yourself and I really appreciate your honesty in your expressions of how you feel on this topic and all the various other topics on BnS.

Your sharing your journey of getting out of debt over the years---the ups and downs of it all has been an inspiration to me. I can't tell you how many times I've thought of you the past couple of years each time I've been tempted to purchase a "want" that we don't "really" need. I think to myself, Dia makes great sacrifices to keep her family out of debt...I need to be like her....and then have not made the purchase.

Don't underestimate the power of the things you share on here Dia. I love all of your posts, and again appreciate your honesty in it all. Sometimes you bring up thoughts and ideas in various categories of life--- that I have had similar feelings about, but am too chicken to say so or admit. Then I'll see your comment about it---and feel---wow, I'm not alone----I'm not the only one who feels this way. Even when your thoughts differ from my own, your thoughts get me thinking and open up my mind to other viewpoints. I like to be open-minded---you help me to do so.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings, ideas and inspiration Dia. You really are a great example to me!