Wants Versus Needs

[Dia Minha]

Have we has a society gotten so spoiled we can't tell the difference between wants and needs. I have come across several situations in the last few months that have me steaming and no matter how hard I try I'm having a hard time controling my emotions over it.

I know of three families this last Christmas season that were pretty hard up, or at least I thought they were. They were receiving help from many sources to cover their needed expenses and had been for several months. However, while their needs were being met, they spent a huge amount of money on Christmas presents for themselves. In each of these cases, this was after recieving gifts from others to help support their families during the season of giving. So it wasn't like their little ones were going without anything under the tree this year. One of these families spent more on their three children than we did on our five, as well has recieving outside help for house payments, groceries, utilities, gifts for each child, etc.

I know one of the reasons why this "hurts" me so bad, is we have given up a lot of things we want, to give to people we thought were in need, just like these families. The thought of us doing such and having those people think they deserve to have others pay for their neccesities so they can go out and buy what their hearts desire makes me so very beyond . . . sad. It makes me want to quit trying to help others and just take care of myself.

And then even while writing this, I realize that isn't the answer. We served three families this season without giving any help financially and we enjoyed it tremendously. I have also had the opportunity to serve a friend in need several times this last week, once again it having to do nothing with money. I guess it is time for me to step out of my comfort zone and quit being the one to write the check and start serving in other ways. Our "charity funds" will just have to be written as fast offerings from now on. At least than we know that an inspired Bishop is distributing it.

Any thoughts on this?

[bookworm]

Though I can see your point of view, I'm wondering about the circumstances that you might not know about here. Maybe they had a family member donate a large gift card that they used for the gifts, or maybe something else. Of course, maybe you do know all the details and that's why it's so upsetting to you, but I have to wonder. Usually we don't know as much as we think we do about other people's family life...

You and your DH have made some excellent financial choices and sacrifices to get where you are, and that's fantastic, but not everyone is married to someone like your DH, and not everyone has the same priority standards you have. I really admire your situation, but we aren't even close to where you guys are financially, and probably won't be for a very long time. (Not that we would take donated gifts and then spend huge amounts on top of that, but most people don't have the financial self-discipline that you two have.)

We have struggled financially most of our marriage, and we're right back there now. It's very hard to hear people talk about how much they are saving, etc., when our savings was depleted months ago to pay our bills when the income stopped. I can't listen to Dave Ramsey, because it makes my stomach hurt. I don't have two nickels to rub together most months, much less extra $ to put in a retirement account.

However, we managed to have a nice Christmas, mostly because my DH's dad gave us some cash specifically for Christmas, and another family member gave us a Macey's gift card that saved our budget for December. I'm embarrassed and ashamed to be poor. I HATE it. I am an independent person by nature, and this makes me CRAZY. However, it is the situation I'm in. When the economy tanked, it completely bled us dry. Everything I had worked so hard to do-- paying off our credit cards, saving money every month, has to be started over at square one.

It's extremely frustrating and I sincerely hope that no one (family who helped us) looks at us and says, "Huh... how can they afford _____ if they needed help last month?!"

Ha, I guess you opened a can of worms for me here!! I hope I don't sound upset, I'm not-- I think it comes back to "if you could walk a mile in their shoes" kind of things. You are mentally, spiritually and financially in a whole different place than those families that struggle, Dia.

I agree, though, that if you don't like to see those you help doing things you don't approve of, with the money you donate, then you shouldn't donate money to them. Fast offerings is actually a wonderful donation, and generally gets help to those who need it most, I think.

[Dia Minha]

I really appreciate your insights Bookworm. It is always nice to get a different point of view. We haven't always been where we are and we have had many a skimpy Christmas ourselves. We have never had to go without anything we have needed, but to me that was because we were willing to give up so much of what we wanted. There was a year or so after our second was born, that I didn't wear makeup. Not that I didn't want to, I choose to give it up, because it was a want and we had so many needs. DH was working and going to school full time, I was trying to work from home, and we were doing this all with one vehicle. I also was having to hand wash my garments each night, because I only had three or four sets and it couldn't wait until wash day. It was hard to decide what to wear on wash day, because everything needed to be washed, but I couldn't haul the laundry in the nude, nor take my children out with no clothes on, yet, we never went without a meal on the table and we always had a roof over our heads. We learned a ton during those years that we were able to define our needs and wants and go without. I just don't see those lessons being learned anymore. People consider cell-phones, hair appointments, new clothes, internet, makeup, etc. as needs and this saddens me. They are missing the opportunity to learn the lesson on how to become, "mentally, spiritually and financially in a whole different place".

For these three families, who have all been very open as to where they got the money, I do know their circumstances more than I wish I did. It would have been easier if I could just say, "well maybe . . . " and create a story that would make me feel better.

I understand how hard it is not to be financially fit and I do know that some circumstances are beyond one's control. That is why my DH and I have always felt like we needed to give back. We try very hard to be generous to those around us, but these situations make me feel used and abused. They make me hesitant, because I want to help those that really "need" it and aren't just looking for a handout to maintain a lifestyle they can't afford. I have felt that not everyone can "write the check" and being a person who could, I should. But this year I'm thinking that even though I can, maybe I shouldn't. It sure is easier, but maybe in order for me to learn the next lesson, I need to get out and do what Pres. Monson said and give of my time and my self.

Am I being like the government and bailing out a whole bunch of people and preventing them from learning the needed lesson, if I continue to "write the check"?

[runamyrun]

This is a very interesting topic. Sometimes it is really hard to know what is the right thing to do.

This year right before Christmas, we had our kids pick out a gift that a child their age would love to receive for Christmas. We had a charity in mind to donate to, but it didn't work out. So, I decided I wanted to give some of it to a friend. She had told me that they were having a difficult year, like a lot of people. Their Christmas was going to be a lot smaller than usual. I love this person and wanted to help them out, but I just couldn't make it work. She is very independent so I didn't know if she would even accept our gifts, but scrimping for Christmas means something different to most people than to our family. I ended up finding a really good organization that was in desperate need, to donate our toys to. I think the important thing was listening to the Spirit. I didn't really feel anything when I thought about giving to my friend. Normally I feel passionate about something when I know I need to do it. So after a few days of asking around, I saw an article in the newspaper. As soon as I started reading it, I KNEW it was where we needed to go.

Another thought I had about this topic, is that it reminds me of people begging outside the temple. I had always felt that it was ok to donate food, but not money, because I thought they were there just to rake in the money or use it for drugs or beer. One day I was visiting teaching, and my companion and the person we were visiting both said that they would rather donate and err on the side of being too generous. That it was not their place to judge and that Heavenly Father would bless them for their charity. I felt embarrassed because I was being miserly. Now, I am not saying that you are being miserly like me. I am just saying that even though it did not turn out the way you had hoped (I can't remember if it was you helping out or others), at least you will be blessed for it. Heavenly Father is the one who will figure it all out. And I guess you live and learn and hopefully can see warning signs in the future.

I think you and your husband set a great example for many people. What a great thing you both are doing.

[Dia Minha]

Thank you for sharing Amy. I was thinking about this after my last comment. I do need to listen to the spirit and then just be ok with that, no matter what the situation turns to. I have a loving, trusting Heavenly Father and he knows my intentions. I just have a really hard time knowing for sure if I am listening to the spirit, which is kind of funny because it is the topic I'm speaking on in church next Sunday and I think I finally understand a concept that I have been studying all week. So thank you, thank you.

We did not help any of these particular families out. I guess you could say it was the same type of thing you went through. We talked about it and we even discussed amounts, but never got it done. We too ended up doing something else that I felt more "passionate" about.

Just in case anyone missed it, I do claim these feelings. I know there is a part of me that has no right to feel this way. That by being upset about decisions another has made, I am judging them and I shouldn't be doing that. I really just needed to talk about it and figure out where the feelings were coming from so I could figure out how to keep them from coming back. I thought I had won this battle once already and I really hate that I'm fighting it again.

Anyway, so now that I'm working on the spiritual side of the problem, let's go back to the original topic of wants vrs. needs. Because we live in a "priviledge" society, are their just somethings that have become needs just because they are so prominent? Has the definition of "neccessity" changed with the times? Is it impossible in the world of government bailouts, common bankruptcies, house foreclosures, etc. to learn how to go without our financial desires to provide for our needs by ourselves? For example: I remember several years ago I was very upset that we did not qualify for reduced lunches at school, because DH made $40 too much a month. The problem was that we were paying over $600 a month in insurance premiums and I thought we deserved the help. Of course we were just fine. It just would have been nice to have the government help cover our children's lunches so that we could spend that money on something we desired. Make sense? Has this just become "the norm"?

[runamyrun]

I think wants versus needs has changed so much from what it was like when our grandparents or even parents were growing up. And part of our problem is that by the time we move out of our parents' home, we are accustomed to living with certain conveniences. When we get married it is so easy to believe that they are necessities, and not really think about how it may have taken years for our parents to accumulate some of those things.

The last couple of years were pretty yucky financially for us (thankfully a few months ago things did a complete turn around and we are fine). We were only ok because we had saved up quite a bit of savings as a safety net. I know that we would have qualified for help, but I didn't feel good about it because of our savings, but also with my husband's business I knew it could change at any time. When I went school clothes shopping for my kids last year, I had to think about what clothes were necessary and which were wants. Most years more clothes were necessary, but that year we bought the bare minimum. I think back to when people lived in a one room home, had maybe two pairs of clothes, and were happy to get an orange for Christmas. That changes my perspective of what is needed or wanted.

This is a complete sidetrack, but we have been feeling quite crowded in our home for a while. We would like to eventually move to a larger home. When my husband was doing well with his business, we were just trying to save and wait until the time was right. When his business tanked, all of a sudden I felt trapped. I wanted a larger home more than before, but I think it was because psychologically, we want what we can't have. It takes great discipline to not give in and buy what we want. Now that business is good again, I don't feel trapped, and I can see ways to make our home work for us until it is time for us to move.

---------- Post added at 02:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:59 PM ----------

Oh, and Dia, I hope that you don't think I was judging you at all. I have had the same feelings at one time or another. I was just wanted to share my thoughts in hopes that they would help trigger something that would help you.

[5ft Diva]

Needs vs. wants. I truly believe that can't be defined the same for everybody because everybody is different. It's not fair to define needs for everybody as a roof over your head, clothes on your back and food on the table. It's just not that cut and dry. Besides, if it were, it'd be in the scriptures somewhere. Those things are indeed the essentials in life - to survive - but we all know Heavenly Father didn't send us to this world to survive, and THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! The Lord does look upon the heart and he understands us each individually. I believe that there are those that need things of a temporal nature in a way we could never understand. I'm not saying that those needs should be met at the expense of others - only that we shouldn't say, "They need to get back to the basics," Because we probably don't know what "their" basics are. I am, grateful that the Spirit guides us to know what to do even when we don't know why we're doing it.

[bookworm]

Beautifully put, Diva!

[Dia Minha]

Well, of course we all "need" different things and of course we were put on this Earth more than to just survive. I myself do not know if it states in the scriptures what our basic needs are, but I do know the prophets have talked about it and aren't we taught that Heavenly Father speaks through his prophets?

I'm not saying that we should always and only just survive and meet our basic needs. "Men are that they might have joy." However, I don't think that joy comes from going into debt or allowing others to cover our basic needs so that we can have more of what we desire. I'm just wondering why it is that as a society, a nation, a people, that we somehow believe we deserve more than we can afford? Every one has different trials and tests on this Earth and we will be judge according to how we handle these trials and tests. I believe one of those tests is how we manage our blessings, including our income. Some will be tested by not having enough to meet their needs and some will be tested with what they do with their abundance.

Yes, somebody might have a temporal "need" they can't afford, but the prophets have taught us there are very few reasons to go into debt and even then we should do so carefully and work hard and fast to pay it off. Of course there are always uncontrolable circumstances and that is were we are called upon to prioritize. In order to do so, we must understand the difference between a need and a want or we jeopardize our financial situation.

Amy I just noticed your addition to your second post. I did not feel judged by your comments. I felt you expressed very well some of the feelings that I myself am having and trying to share.

Anyway, I don't know why I do this. I am not a good debator. Yet, I always seem to start these debates and I'm never sure why. I do know that I have learned a lot and hope that if someone needed to hear what we all have to say, they will get the opportunity. At the very least, it got me thinking.

Thanks for being so patient with me.

[5ft Diva]

What debate are you talking about? I am completely unaware of any debate that has taken place. A debate is about proving your point in a way that swings the "vote", if you will, in your favor so I find it interesting that you use that word. Based on what I've read I feel like there is an unmet need here, but I'm not trying to make something bigger out of this than meets the eye. I'm just calling it like I see it.

Dia, I took this thread as you asking for our opinions on the subject so our opinions you got. Your last comments make me wonder if you're just actually needing validation for an opinion you have. If that is indeed the case then maybe our opinions aren't helpful to you at this time and we could be more helpful by helping you process through something you're trying to understand.

Am I way off the grid here or.....? Just curious.

[Dia Minha]

I guess in that case debate would be the wrong word. I am feeling unheard or like I have been misunderstood. So maybe I am in need of validation. I know that one can understand, and still disagree, but this feels different. I feel like I'm not being understood. I guess this is one of those times, that this is so "cut and dry", to me, that when someone else doesn't see it that way, I feel like I'm not explaining it right. That if I could somehow explain it better, than they would. So, now it does look like I'm trying to "swing the vote".

And even as I'm writing this I realize that maybe this is one of those times that Heavenly Father has "blessed" me with the ability to see it so clear cut, because that is what I (me, myself and no one else) need. I say "blessed" because a lot of times it seems more like a trial. So many times in my life I have felt like, "You do it this way and be happy or this way and not be happy. It's your choice." Yet, it doesn't feel like much of a choice.

Then there is the fact that I have learned a lot about my opinion and myself by reading your opinions. So I wouldn't say that your opinions have not been helpful. When it comes right down to it, I know I needed to post this, I don't know why or what I needed from it, but I have learned and stretched. And anytime I post anything on BnS that is what I really desire.

[5ft Diva]

So what I heard here is that you make the financial choices you make because of obligation and not because it makes you happy. Is that at least in the ballpark somewhere?

[Dia Minha]

I would say you are in the ballpark. I don't feel like I choose obligation over happiness while making financial decisions. There are times I feel obligated to make certain decisions, because I know, without a doubt, that choice will make me happy. So ultimately I make the choices I make, because I know it will bring my happiness.

I know what is right. However, when I see people making poor decisions and seemingly being rewarded for them, it plants little seeds of doubt in my head, that maybe some how I have it wrong. That maybe it is ok to use the system, because that is what it is there for right. So I go through this phase were I try telling myself that I deserve more. That I should quit going without the things I want, so that I can give to others. They are getting everything they want and more, so why shouldn't I. However, deep down inside, I know this isn't true. These people will eventually have to pay for their decisions. It might not be obvious to them and they might not ever realize that they never were really happy, but I will be able to sleep at night and I will know true happiness, because I know I have done the best I can.

It all comes down to remaining "unspotted from the world". Sometimes I allow myself to not only be in the world, but I slip into being of the world. I see people that have things I want and could have, but know I can't really afford and if I bought would jeapordize my financial stability. I start desiring it and it can even feel like I "need" it. The more I desire it, the more frustrated I get. But, if I could just rise above the world and realize what it is that I really want, which is financial security, then I find my true happiness.

I'm sure I have just made this more confusing, but I'm going to have to leave it at this. I'm trying to prepare a talk for Sunday. Which insterestingly enough, I have made several connections between this conversation and the topic I have been assigned. This has been very eye opening and I have enjoyed it. However, I need to move on and put my time and effort into my preperations.

[natickgirl]

I posted something a few days ago, but somehow it disappeared.

Dia, I've been on both sides of the coin, so to speak. I don't know whether it is more frustrating to give and then see your generosity "wasted", so to speak, or to be on the receiving end and have the "gift" come with strings attached (you know, expectations on how it should be used, whether those expectations are spoken or unspoken).

I think it all comes down to being able to give with a true & honest heart regardless of the outcome. This is NOT easy! It is our natural tendency to judge others based on our own situation/knowledge/priorities. Fortunately, as you said, those who are irresponsible financially, whether with their own or other's resources, will ultimately have to answer for that. In addition, they are robbing themselves of the chance to learn self-mastery rather than instant gratification.

Like 5ft said, people have different ideas of what "needs" are. This has become so much more apparent to me as we've been house hunting. My DH's "needs" far exceed my own. I would rather get out of debt more quickly and settle for something more modest, but DH truly needs something he can feel proud of, feel comfortable in, and not have to worry about fixing up because he's spent too many years feeling cramped, inadequate, uncomfortable, and stressed over necessary repairs. Some people can deal with that, but he honestly can't & it has affected him negatively. For his peace of mind & our sanity, we'll be purchasing a much nicer home than we really "need". I know we will be judged for this, but I know my DH and this is what's best for our family at this time. (I'm not trying to hijack the thread, just giving a different point of view.)

You are very fortunate that you and your DH are both on the same page with regards to saving vs. spending. Each couple is different. Perhaps one of the couple really wants to get out of debt & become financially independent so they don't have to use the system, but the other is a spender & wants to get whatever (s)he can get. If a spouse wants to spend, (s)he will spend! I know from experience that being at odds with regards to saving/spending is tough.

I'm sure you'll come to peace with your decisions. Thanks for getting us all thinking about this issue.

[Erudite]

Interesting thread. I learned a lot, but don't think anything I'd add would add, but would only reiterate many thoughts that have been shared. Thanks everyone!

Dia, how'd the talk go?