Helping Children Learn

[Dia Minha]

I started to post this on the thread BW started about the parenting books, but thought it might be better in it's own thread.

I need help with my oldest's science project. Mainly the one page report. She is having a hard time writing it and I am having a hard time helping. Whenever I sit down to help her, I found myself writing it for her.

How do you help your children do their "own" best work without doing it for them?

These are a few things I have tried and none of them have worked.

1-I helped her come up with a basic outline. We organized her information into paragraphs. She then took that information and in her own words wrote the paper. But she didn't follow the outline and has no organization.

2-I have tried to go through it and point out where her information needed more detail, or less detail. She just looks at me very irritated like and does not take any of my suggestions.

The main problem is she just does not take any suggestions from me. I have encouraged her to talk to her teacher and she has bulked. I asked her this morning if she would be ok with me emailing him. I explained that I would ask him to help me know how to best help her, and she seemed ok with that.

I just want her to do her best work. I don't care if she "wins". I just don't understand why she won't let me "teach" her how to write proper report. Any suggestions?

[bookworm]

Something very intriguing happened to me as I read your post, Dia...

first of all, I thought, "oh, she did just what I would have done- outline, instruct, etc."

Then I had a realization that keeps coming to me in different forms regarding my own children- about letting them own their own work, etc.

When you said, "I want her to do her best work" and then said what you did about teaching her to write a "proper" report, I thought, HOLD ON- are you saying that it is only going to be "proper" or correct or right if she does it your way? Then it's not HER best work, though, is it?

Something I keep realizing is that my kids are young, and their teachers expect work at their level- not mine. My oldest DS had a science project last week and I found myself taking over and writing notes for him and telling him how to do it all. I had to physically reign myself in and let him do it. I have to trust that he's learning what he needs to in class to be able to handle the project. He did this huge poster display thing about the experiment all by himself. It doesn't look anything like what I would have done or wanted it to look like, but it's his. It's also his grade.

Anyway, I don't know if that makes any sense at all, but what I'm trying to get at is this: If your daughter is able and willing to do it on her own, in her own way, maybe you need to step back and let her. Allowing our children to fail is actually okay. If she asks for help, give her just what she has asked for, but nothing more. For example, my DS needed some guidance in how to use the candy thermometer for his experiment, so I should have stopped at that, not put it in the water and told him what to write down!

Ahhh, we're all a work in progress, aren't we?

That's my 2 cents...

[5ft Diva]

Good thoughts, BW.

Dia, I hope you take what I'm going to say here in the best way possible - internet just doesn't provide tone so you have to use your imagination. Just imagine me saying this in a very matter of fact yet, caring and non critical way to you. I feel sometimes what I say is not completely understood and possibly hurts people's feelings so I had to preface my comment w/ this.

Anyway, I wanted to comment on letting our children experience their own failures. As BW was saying - we should let our children explore their "way". It is the only way they will find out what they are really capable of doing. My thoughts on this is if they do the project (or whatever they're working on at the time) and it's done their way and the results are satisfactory to them it is not a failure - it would be seen as success. Sometimes having the ability to see our children's potential is a curse to us as parents because we are guaging them according to that potential rather than their current capabilities. (I know I've done that w/ my oldest too many times.)

You sound like you're doing a great job. Don't be so hard on yourself.

[Dia Minha]

Thank you BW for your comments. You are making a lot of sense. Can I rack your brain a little. I’m still having a hard time understanding some things.

I am not saying she has to do it my way in order for it to be right. I think most of us would agree, that in order to write a good research paper, it needs to be organized, contain appropriate information, and be understandable. My daughters paper contains none of these things.

I do not believe this paper in particular is age appropriate. Compared to the work she does in class, it is way below her level. We had a similar problem with a homework assignment last year. They had been learning how to write research papers in class and she had brought home some short papers she had done in class, that were very well done. She was assigned to do a research paper at home. An instruction sheet came home that stated she could pick any topic she was interested in, do some research to learn more about it and write a paper using the methods taught in class. She came home, wrote up everything she knew about Brazil and wanted to turn it in. When I pointed out that she was to do some research on the subject she bulked and pouted. I decided I would let her turn it in just the way she had it. I figured the teacher would instruct her on the things she had not done and help her learn how to do it right. She brought the paper home with no comments, even though it was obvious she had not followed instructions.

If I just continue to let her do it her way, will she ever learn how to do it better. Isn’t it a little like teaching a child how to add and subtract and then let them try to figure out how to multiply and divide by themselves. Can it really be done? Wouldn’t it be better to teach them how to multiple and divide? Or how about teaching them to recognize their letters, but never teaching them how those letters put together form words so they can read. I believe that in order for my daughter to learn how to write a good research paper it has to be taught. Experience has shown me that it is not going to be taught at school, so I need to home school her in this subject, but she refuses to let me.

[Dia Minha]

Diva, I understand what you are saying. At least, I think I do.

So will they ever learn how to do it better, if know one instructs them how? How do children know they can do better, if all they hear is what they have done is fine?

I don't believe I am trying to push my daughter beyond her capabilities, because I have seen her do better. I just don't understand how I am supposed to help her be her best, if I am always satisfied with what she has accomplished, just because she is. Doesn't this encourage a child to be lazy and teach them how to, just get by?

[5ft Diva]

Okay, this is a different question and one I think you know the answer to. I think that you just need to take it line upon line so that it feels like success for the both of you. Tell me what your gut is telling you to do.

[Dia Minha]

I'm not sure I'm getting it. This is so frustrating. I don't feel like I know the answer at all. I'm not even sure what the question is anymore.

My gut is telling me that she should have learned how to write a research paper in school, but for some reason she hasn't. It is then my duty has her parent to teach her and somehow fill in the holes that were missed in the wonderful world we call public schools.

[Dia Minha]

Ok ok, never mind. I just read through it all again, and I get it. I am doing a great job. I'm doing the best I can. I am doing my best to teach her how to write a research report. I asked her teacher, to teach me, how to teach her. I wasn't trying to fix her report, I was trying to fix me so that I could better help her. So, I am doing it right.

[5ft Diva]

See? There you go! Way to go, Dia!

[bookworm]

This is all very interesting. What grade is your daughter in? I do think there is a standard format for research papers, but if teachers aren't requiring that standard and haven't taught it, is it necessary to stress about it? She will learn how to do it "correctly" when it becomes necessary.

If you are SURE something should have been taught at school but hasn't been, then YES you should teach it to your children. Personally, I have to put faith in the schools' curriculums because I have no idea when things are "supposed" to be taught. If I know something got missed (like if my 3rd grader wasn't learning times tables), I will ask the teacher about it or try to instruct my kids.

One thing to remember, though, is that if she is totally resistent to you teaching her things, there is a reason. Is it something she's going through that makes her feel picked on and criticized? Is it your method of teaching? Is it some kind of rebellious attitude on her part? If she refuses to learn from you, no amount of tension and wishing and frustration will change that (not that you are tense or frustrated, I just know how I get...). She may have to learn it from someone else.

I commend you for being so aware of what each child is doing.

Personally, I am trying to back off as far as schoolwork goes, not because I've been too involved, but because I try to control things too much. Instead of praising their abilities as students, sometimes I get crazy harrassing the kids about that one low grade... there has to be balance between praising what they are doing RIGHT and correcting things that need correcting. What I'm learning recently is to recognize what needs correcting! I've taken "Love and Logic" twice (like 7 years ago), and only now I'm realizing that my kids' grades are THEIR responsibility- not mine. I can keep tabs on them, but too much involvement, and I start owning it and not letting them learn at their own pace and for their own goals.

I'm rambling and probably way off topic, Dia, sorry- it sounds like you figured out what you were looking for. I'm still figuring things out little by little...

I think it's interesting that last year her teacher required something and then didn't make comments when those requirements weren't met. That's annoying. I do think things like research papers will be taught again and again, and by the time the kids are in college they'll know what to do. I'm relaxing a lot about parenting lately, mainly because I feel like you do about money- I want them to learn to LIVE so when they become adults, they aren't dependent on me! In the real world, if they have an assigment that they don't do on time, they get in trouble. So if I'm pushing them to get done on time, I take away that consequence. If a teacher isn't imposing consequences, that's frustrating, but the likelihood is that next year's teacher WILL make notes and dock points for things not done on assignments.

[Dia Minha]

Thanks Bookworm.

My oldest is in fourth grade. She is not required to do a science project she just wanted to. So her teacher is not teaching how to do it in class. I have tried to just use the information they sent home about the science fair, but it is very hard to understand. In fact, I still can't figure out what her oral presentation is supposed to be.

I have known for sometime that she feels criticized. I'm working on figuring out why this might be, and what I can do different. It just seems like she has always been like this. I tried to teach her piano way back in kindergarten. Everytime I would sit down with she wanted to just do her own thing. She wouldn't let me teach her the notes or where to place her fingers. I finally gave up.

I know I can not expect my children's teachers to be perfect. However, it is very frustrating when there are no consequences to his/her actions. I have really struggled with my son. He never turns anything in on time. His teachers don't seem to care, so I have backed off and just encouraged him on a regular basis to catch up. I'm just worried about what is going to happen when he gets a teacher that requires everything to be in on time. It is going to be a very hard lesson for him to learn. Harder than it would have been in 2nd or 3rd grade that is.

I don't feel like I hover over my children's homework. In fact it became a real struggle with my son to practice spelling words. So I quit bugging him about it. He never practices them at home a continuely misses 4 or more words every week, but he is fine with that, so I've decided I have to be too. Again he will have to learn the hard way. I just hope it is sooner rather than later, so he can catch up on his study skills before it becomes really important in highschool.

Just a quick update. I sat down with her again after school and we went through the science fair information together and figured out what we thought should be in her paper. Then we went sentance by sentance. She wrote it out and I asked questions about it until she figured out how to get it to make more sense. So we both feel really good about the outcome. Thank goodness there is a 250 word maximum.

[Dia Minha]

I just wanted to add: I think the reason I am so passionate about this, is because my mom's idea of helping me with my science project in the 5th grade was to mark a couple paragraphs in the encyclopedia and have me copy them. I did not learn a thing. When it came time to answer the judges questions, I had no idea what he was talking about. I was so embarrassed. I did finally learn how to write a real paper, but I never learned how to teach someone how to write one, because no one ever taught me.

I don't want my children to be embarrased. More importantly, I want to them to really learn, how to learn, and enjoy it. Not just do what it takes to get by. I have had so much fun learning right along beside my daughter. It is something that has brought us closer together.

It's not that I don't trust the public school system. I feel like they do the best they can. I just believe there are a lot of holes, and that has a parent I have the duty to make sure the holes are being filled the best I can. If I can do this with my children while they are young, they will have the knowledge they need, and actually be better prepared as they become more independant.

[bookworm]

Well said, Dia! It sounds like you have a lot of balance in your parenting- good job!

I think one of the hardest parts of being a mom is realizing the kids will have to learn some things the hard way. If they would just let the lessons be taught NOW!! Oh well, it's their life to experience. I learned many lessons the hard way (still do...) and I didn't fall of the Earth or lose my way. I have to remember that they will be okay, too.

My parents NEVER helped with any of my homework. We had a contest in like 4th grade, I think, to see what we could come up with that would keep an ice cube from melting for the longest period of time. I knew about the assignment, knew when it was due, and still didn't do anything about it until the night before. Then I just grabbed a metal bowl with a lid and took that to school. I was mortified when I saw that other kids had coolers, styrofoam, etc. to keep their ice from melting. I was so ashamed, I put the bowl in my desk and claimed that I didn't do the assigment. No one helped me, and I am very limited when it comes to thinking creatively like that. I didn't have any clue what would keep ice from melting! I hadn't ever gone camping or anything with coolers or ice chests- I had very little life experience.

I have many memories like this one, too- I just embarrassed myself to death until I finally learned to ask for help- once I learned that hard lesson, things got easier. But it wasn't until like 10th grade that I finally learned it. Sad, huh? BUT I survived!

I've tried to teach my kids some good life skills, coping skills, and to not be afraid to ask questions!! I encourage them to talk to teachers, look things up and to ask for help when they need it. Hopefully, they'll be more prepared for life than I was! Maybe this is why my oldest DS has had such a smooth transition to Jr. High- he was so much better prepared than I was. It was awful for me...

Wow, I get rambly, don't I. Thanks for your patience if you actually read this.

[Dia Minha]

Oh, I love to read your ramblings. I'm always amazed at how much we have in common. The similarities just keep coming.

[bookworm]

I realized after typing all that- I've never told anyone that ice cube story. I have other similar stories... I wonder if I ought to get them out of my system... I'll have to share them with DH sometime. Might help me clear some stuff!

We are surprisingly similar

[Dia Minha]

I have many more stories like that too. I can't really blame my mom and I don't. She did raise 11 kids. Although I was the second to the youngest, she started raising my neices and nephews right around the time I started Junior High. So, it was kind of like she still had a ton of babies at home. The more children I have, and the older they get, the more I realize what a good job my mom did. It also makes sense that it is my siblings, who only have two children, that think my mom did such an aweful job raising them, and because of that, still owes them something.

[5ft Diva]

Dia, I wish I could find the sentence in this thread that is reminding me of this next experience that I'm going to tell you about, but I can't so hopefully you'll be able to fit this next thought into this thread and it'll make sense to you.

I have tried to teach my son piano lessons three different times. It was very difficult and I finally decided that in order for him to really learn how to play the piano he would need to learn from a different teacher. Well, reading this thread I now understand why I have been unsuccessful teaching him the concept of music. (I hope I can make sense because it makes sense in my head.) My parenting style is one that encourages creative thinking. I encourage my children to think outside the box. I can see now that this was a problem with teaching piano (and math) because I don't think outside the box when teaching these concepts. In order for a child to learn the basics of music they have to learn certain things in a certain order - therefore - leaving little room for thinking outside the box. Especially when I only know how to teach music one way and that is with precision and exactness. Well the problem, as you can see, is a conflict of my own teaching styles. I had spent years and years teaching and encouraging my son to think outside the box and then when we get to this piano stuff I then all of a sudden change my tune and start telling him that he has to walk perfectly straight on the line - so to speak. I can clearly see why he would buck at that. Does this make sense? I wonder if the same concept can be applied to why your daughter was not taking any of your suggestions, Dia. Is it possible that your style of teaching her how to write this report was conflicting with the other ways you had taught her to do other things? Just a thought. I really hope this makes sense.

[Dia Minha]

Yes, Diva, It makes a whole lot of sense. And it also explains why, when I started concentrating on the fun stuff of why we were doing this in the first place, that everything else fell into place. I have always been the fun mom. Everything is turned into a game at our house, because that is what my children respond to. I think that is why daddy has always done better in helping with homework etc. Thanks for sharing.